Inch/mm chart

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25

That is an ugly, boring, symmetrical page layout. I’d flunk anyone who did a project on it.

Yes, the golden ratio A- and B-series paper sizes are nice, esp. the way they fit into envelopes and one can reduce / enlarge them in alternates.

The problem is, people doing art programs where the width of a two-column ad != two columns plus the gutter who then complain when:

  • their art is clipped
  • their art sticks into the margin or the gutter
  • their art is asymmetrically scaled
  • their art is reduced in size proportionally

I’ve never seen an art program done in metric on a metric page with three columns in a pleasing layout which didn’t result in such issues. Until then, my contention stands.

U.S. standard paper sizes are (in inches): ANSI A / letter (8.5x11), legal (8.5x14), ANSI B / tabloid/ledger (11x17), B+ (13x19), ANSI C (17x22), ANSI D (22x34), ANSI E (34x44) plus the Arch sizes.

27

I was just trying to point out that page layout is not affected by what system you use. It’s all down to habit. Personal preference about what is boring or exciting layout-wise also has no relevance to the discussion.

28

No, there are a lot of text block sizes for multi-column layouts which will result in a repeating decimal for the gutter or the column width (or both) — a basic understanding of math makes that obvious, and the inability of a decimal-based system to be divided into thirds evenly. People then refuse to incorporate the irrational numbers into the specs for their art program, resulting in one (or all) the problems which I described.

It would be an ugly world if people chose page layouts ’cause of an even number in some measurement system, rather than because it was fitting to the text and page and looked good.

I believe that everything should be measured and sized accurately up-front — this results in fewer surprises, less error, and saves on re-work.

30

So now it all needs to be evenly distributed down to the last decimal, whereas a minute ago you considered this practice ugly and boring.
I am graphic designer by education, and work in metric all the time. I never had any issue with it, because there really is none. Yes 10/3 is a repeating decimal number. But I fail to see where that would ever impede me to layout a page. Maybe your day job is extremely specific in that respect, I honestly have no idea.

Not that it matters, because the examples in the last few posts are so arbitrarily cherry picked… Surely you understand they don’t hold any weight at all with respect to the merit of either system in scientific measuring.

I don’t mind a civil discussion from time to time, especially when I know I’m right. :sunglasses:
I have them all the time with Apple fanboys too.
U-oh, now I’ve done it, I’ve opened pandora’s box. :joy:

31

How it is this even a discussion :joy:

It is not matter of opinion, even imperial is based on metric now, the whole US measurements office redefined things based on metric United States customary units - Wikipedia

I already posted this video but it is a good information video to embrace the future and start to leave behind medieval measurements systems:

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32

Your being right involves your choosing to accept numbers, or rounding offs, which are not necessary when using a system which allows one do evenly divide by twelfths and seventy-seconds. I have not gainsaid this, merely noted my personal preferences.

I mislike such numbers, and prefer precision and accuracy of measurement and elegant depiction thereof.

Points and picas afford this, but metric all-too-often ends up w/ repeating/irrational decimals, or rounding which causes the problems which I’ve described. Yes, I’ll often switch to points / picas when drawing up a woodworking project, and will then use a graphic arts ruler when laying out the cuts at my workbench. There have been a couple of projects where using metric made sense (usually the ones where I’m using Lego bricks as spacers) — and of course, the whole point of CNC is to avoid the need for that sort of thing for actual manufacture.

I’d be more inclined to try metric if it would cost me almost $400 to replace my favorite rule w/ a metric one: Near Mint! STANLEY No. 62 Boxwood and Brass Metric and English Folding Rule – Jim Bode Tools — I still find it more accurate to mark out either to a 64th or 128th of an inch (directly against a ruler mark), or to a point or half-point (against a mark or dividing in half), than to a third or two-thirds of a millimeter (half-millimeters are a bit easier to mark out than a half point, but that’s only precise to 1.4175 points).

Similarly, it’s a bit simpler for me to denote a ¼″ bit for a driver, than worry about why they’re 6.35mm.

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33

Well at the very least I am sure you will agree when I say not everybody is as disciplined as you when it comes to rounding decimals:sweat_smile:

that video is really interesting, and the one he has on paper sizes is even better. There’s a few things in there I actually didn’t know.

And off course it proves my point even more. :sunglasses:

Personally I think the millimeter is a great base metric for drawing/manufacturing. When manually drawing something up, you don’t need much more precision than a millimeter, since a pencil will mark a line already half a mm thick. It is easier for me to grasp what 0.3 mm would look like, than it would to imagine say 5/32ths.

34

This discussion reminds me of my father-in-law (Lord help me!). Any mention of metric gets him all riled up. He’s of the opinion that the entire rest of the planet outside the USA should convert to Imperial so he never has to hear the word metric again! He also thinks the South should have won the Civil War so things would have stayed “nice and orderly”!

Personally, I guess I could be called a “middle of the roader”. I switch between systems depending on the situation. As was mentioned, 25.4 is our friend!

35

When I mark things up for layout, I use a marking gauge, or a bevel-edged marking knife (w/ the bevel facing the waste side of the cut) — a pencil is too thick, unless used to make a V-shaped mark to indicate where the cut should be measured from, but it’s easier to just prick w/ a knife.

FWIW, the big thing for discussions such as this (or platform wars, which are another old favourite) for me is the chance to learn something new, and to see what is behind another person’s viewpoint.

@BillArnold — whenever anyone takes that sort of tact w/ me, I just ask them if they’ve read Fra. Ryan’s “The Conquered Banner”: The Conquered Banner — if he likes science fiction there are a couple of alternate history books w/ the south winning (it doesn’t work out well in the ones which have a reasonable grasp of history and consequences), and one horrifying book where the Southern leadership flees to Africa.

37

Starrett offers a couple of conversion charts for free on their website. Pocket sized and a monster 25 by 39 wall hanger. (Inches that is)

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38

I myself would be the band wagon jumper. I use whatever system fits the bill for the work I am doing. Both systems have a place in my shop. But for 12 hours a day I embrace metric as the job requires it

39

I’m not sure what all the fuss is about. We should scrap both the imperial and metric system and go back to base 60. The Babylonian had it right all along.

Halves, thirds, quarters, fifths, sixths, tenths, twelfths, fifteenths, thwentieths, even thirtieths and sixtieths…it’s easy.

The ONLY reason you like the imperial system, is because of your comfort with it. How do you currently get thirds, or sixth or twelfths using the imperial system? You divide by three or six or twelve. I can do the same with the metric system by…you got it…by, dividing by three or six or twelve, and for 99.9% of the time quite easily deal with any remainder.

Have you noticed that the furniture those European maker’s make, always seem to be out of whack…and those German and Japanese…don’t get me started on their lack of precision.

I’m not into the art of print layout, as you obviously are, but if you need to do any engineering, with imperial, you need conversion tables for just about everything.

Now how many of those picas make up a point, and how many points are there in a yard???

With the metric system, I can tell you how much the water, in my rectangular swimming pool, weighs by using a metric measuring tape and my fingers and toes. Do that with your imperial system and tell when your hair grows back in.

Quick…how many inches in a third of a mile?

Go measure some Kings foot and get back to me.

That’s my two cents worth. Cents…wait!..never mind.

Shaking head.

PB

Sorry if the isn’t grammatically correct, but English is my second language.

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40

As I noted in my first post, if a division by 3 doesn’t come out right into inches and base 8 divisions, then I fetch a graphic arts ruler using (computer) picas (12 per inch) and points (72 per inch) (being careful not to grab one of the Printer’s rules which are 72.27 points per inch). If there was a similar alternative representation for metric, I’d find it more useful.

I’ve been using metric since learning it in grade school — I’m comfortable w/ it, but it doesn’t have the sense of human scale to it that Imperial does, which is the balance of my discomfort. And, as I implied, we’ve been doing composition work w/ India, and for European companies for over a decade at my current and previous workplace— metric is a pain for the reasons I noted.

I’ve always thought it a shame that when the Japanese created Kyus (Qs, one-quarter of a point) for their graphic arts measurement for type size — if they’d just used one-thirds, it would be quite workable for this sort of thing.

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43

gahzundhiet!

44

Now you’re talking. That’s elegant!

PB

45

I am actually still waiting for a good argument in favor of imperial. Or a flaw in metric that has a broad influence.
Haven’t read one so far. best argument up until now is a 400 dollar rule :slight_smile:

46

One guy told me that imperial exists nowadays because the subway system.

It is more american and badass to ask for a foot long b.m.t. sub than for a 30 centimeter one like in most of the world.

47

Ya and what about a “Yard of Beer”

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48

But a metre of beer is more beer, good enough reason to change :slight_smile:

All my schooling was done in the imperial system and good old £sd (not that I ever had much of that)
There was a short, confusing period where everything was sold with both imperial and metric measurements which meant you mentally converted from one to the other. Once the imperial side of things was dropped, it became much easier and before long, you forget all about trying to convert to the imperial stuff.
The only imperial measurements I use today are things like knots and nautical miles and only because I’m often talking to boaties who refuse to change. Your traditional (read old) boatbuilder still uses feet, inches and 1/8s when constructing a boat

49

I’ll worry about changing when the rest of the world comes up w/ a suitably metrified standard to replace one-quarter inch bits and drivers, which isn’t simply a relabeling as 6.35mm.

I’ll also need sources for suitable metric scale rules — links for those would be welcome.

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