Just jumping on here to release frustration as again this morning i start by running my machine into the stock clamps. This problem is not going to go away Inventibles, every person that uses your machines encountering this issue. I fully understand you people don’t give a flying rats ■■■ about the clamps as i have brought this up many times. Please for the love of CNC put time into designing a clamp system that works for 3/4" plywood. It actually ridiculous you don’t have this figured out yet as it is the most used stock. Seriously what are you guys thinking? Nobody should be sleeping at the company till this is figured out WTF!!!
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I have no dog in this fight, but I can tell you this isn’t an inventables issue, it’s a cnc issue. I have all kinds of clamps, but they still get hit once in a while. I make them out of wood and use brass screws so if they get hit, in most cases they get shorter. Blaming Inventables for operator error … it’s your responsibility to check to make sure the clamps aren’t in the toolpath.
I’ll do a dry run to make sure with the Z axis up way above the board and watch what happens. There is also this:
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I have no idea what you’re talking about, Brad.
I cut 3/4" lumber almost exclusively…and haven’t hit my clamps once.
This really sounds like a user error.
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I’ve ran into my clamps once and it was pretty annoying but it was my fault. I’ve figured out you can just get a shorter bolt to fit in the T track and use a 1 inch piece of waste material with a small rabbit on it to just put the lip on the plywood. So even if your cutting on your x or y zero the worst that happens is you cut through the wood. (Made mine out of some pretty soft poplar). Another great option I’ve been using on these speaker baffles I make is this 3/32 of an inch double sided tape and just set my Z zero value at 3/32 so I don’t cut through the tape but my depth of cut is still 3/4.
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I also have hit a clamp but also my fault. I have rigged a spring loaded mini sharpie to comnnect to router to ensure my paths are centered and safe works pretty well saves clamps and waste wood. I have also used double sided tape to the waste board
Thanks all for jumping in here! I have cut bolts and the aluminum arms to reduce the profile of the clamps. THIS IS ALL TOO MUCH WORK. The stock clamps run into the stock dust collection… This is an issue, they have sent me two new motors because of this issue. Point I need to make is add up all the hours we end users spend dealing with this issue verse the engineers and owners of the process finding a solution and distributing which is by far the more efficient route here. I believe this is important feedback for Inventables. Even though a vacuum system would solve for most applications there is still the question of strong hold-downs for hardwoods. I’ve dealt enough with this issue to see and easy change the would vastly improve throughput regardless of clamp style…
Solution For Inventables: Rotate the t-slot 90 degrees. This would allow varying width pieces to use the same t-slot clamps. This should also make your 2x4 less of different machine helping mfrg because all T-slot bars are 4’ in length
Additional Solution: Please Inventables engineer a modular vacuum system, maybe a 2x4 size. Nobody can get provide adequate vacuum pressure for tabletop machines. Vacuum systems improve the user experience soo much. I would pay between 3-4k for one on my 4x4. The vacuum pumps are the most expensive part but maybe y’all could get a discount at scale. This would be amazing and would help your company lessen the gap between your smaller, but totally badass, machine here and the big leagues
Please also provide 8’ sidearms OMG this would so badass
Interested how many are just running plywood thicknesses 3/8 - 1"!?
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Wait a sec…“a spring loaded mini sharpie”.
I NEED THIS.
Please elaborate. I’d like to have the XCP do some drawing for me, before I carve. What’s the design of this spring loaded holder you speak of?
This sounds like more of “user error”, than poor engineering.
If you’re running into clamps, it’s because you told the machine to.
Are you clicking “Simulate” before you carve? That shows you exactly where they head will fly. Also, when the head is moving between carves, raise it higher.
And, rather than rotating the TSlots, can you rotate your stock?
I cut hardwoods almost exclusively, and have zero issues clamping things. I just cut circles in 2" thick hickory, yesterday.
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I made it from a 3" close nipple 2 end caps machined the holes in the ends so i can put in router spindle and have about 1" of spring travel what i was seeing online was 60.00 or more. The mini sharpie fits right in
Pictures please?
Not sure how to get a pic attched
Vert frustrating to once again find that the shortfalls of this company end up in my engineering bucket. This company was supposed to be the difference for small startups like mine but i spend hours a day dealing with this machine.
If anyone claims user error then you simply have not used your machine enough to notice where simple changes can save literally hours a day.
Rotating the T-slots makes an insane amount of sense to anyone who has a brain and runs a CNC machine with stock over 4’ long. I am not going to make drawings. If you don’t understand this then take this as a reminder your “not there yet” with CNC knowledge.
This company has a tremendous ability to grow, The rotation of T-slots is absolutely crucial to unlocking more productivity.
Not sure if it will work for whatever your cutting, but I finally started using composite nails this year to secure most of my plywood projects. It’s amazing how much faster and easier it is to just nail down a 4x8 sheet and not worry about hitting a screw or a clamp. It’s also very fast to remove the parts when the cut is finished.
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Have you found a cost-effective composite nailer? Every time I looked into it, it was surprisingly expensive.
I’m using the Phantom CNC composite nailer https://www.phantomcncsystems.com/product-page/pneumatic-composite-nail-gun
It’s less expensive than some of the other brands and will run the standard raptor nails as well as the Phantom CNC branded composite nails.
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OMG!!!
Composite nails… where have you been all of my (CNC) life???
I’d never heard of composite nails until today reading this string (love you guys!!) I to have destroyed more bits than I care to calculate, as well as clamps.
YES, I recognize that it is operator error and that when working with clamps one must spend (waste) an inordinate amount of time calculating tool paths, and programing the machine so as to climb over the clamps. And yes, I know that improved production speed comes with time and experience. But I’m finding that the learning curve is NOT linear.
HOWEVER, none of that matters if you are using the stock dust collection because you still have the dust boot to contend with which DOES NOT go up to clear clamps as the spindle does. There are other CNC machines wherein the boot attaches to the spindle and so the boot will avoid the clamps, but NOT with the x-carve Pro. Now before I get hate mail, YES, I see the advantage to keeping the boot in contact with the work surface at all times, there are “pro’s” and “con’s” to both designs. So how to deal with a dust boot that gets broken off about once a week due to coming too close to a clamp and shearing off the attachment from the machine???
I’ve been working on a redesign to be able to transfer the dust boot to a clamp on the spindle so that, while losing dust collection capability, I won’t spend so much time fixing and reattaching a dust boot each week. Maybe composite nails render such a redesign unnecessary??
At the same time, I have been contemplating adding vacuum hold-down capability to my machine so as to eliminate clamps where possible (yes, I use carpet tape where appropriate but have discovered a unique set of challenges and “con’s” there as well.
(Hint; Inventables, if you were to test different vacuum hold-down systems, and settled upon one that would work well with the x-carve Pro, and offered it as an upgrade, I suspect that I would not be the only one to seriously consider buying said system from you).
BUT THEN…
I open my computer and log-in here to catch up on what I missed over the past week and a half and here it is!! I obviously have no comments to add as to the usefulness of composite nails, given that I am just now discovering that they exist, but on the surface it “Appears” to be a ‘dream-come-true’ hold-down solution.
I would love to hear others’ opinions and experience (both “pro” and “Con” - PLEASE). Should I buy a gun and nails?? Any opinions / reviews of different brands? Yes, they appear pricy (I’d argue that $279 is ALSO expensive for a nail gun, but if I can save time, bits, and clamps, I must give it consideration).
I NEED a better solution, I’m wasting too much time in too many areas, I NEED to get profitable soon.
(kinda sucks that I can’t fire these nails from any of my dozen Nailers in the shop, but such is life).
Thoughts???
Also, I’m also very interested in the aforementioned sharpie idea. I’d often pondered how my life would change if I could have the machine ‘draw’ the cutouts onto the actual board before cutting (tool path simulation only takes me so far). Always assumed that a spinning spindle would prevent such a solution and wondered if there was a way to shut down the spindle and yet still run the machine through the cut path. Any input here would also be appreciated.
all my best,
Joe
Hi Joe,
The entry price for composite nails is a bit steep, and I admit I also didn’t want to drop $300+ on a specialized nail gun. However now that I have it, it’s one of those tools I’m kicking myself for not buying sooner. The Phantom CNC nailer I’d say is on par with Grizzly tools quality and feel. I’ve had it for about 5 months and have had no issues. If you already have a compressor it might also be a good tool for you too.
When I started looking at composite nails, the Omar nailers were the only ones on the market and were stupid expansive. I tried using my normal brad nailer and also borrowed a battery powered nailer to try out, but they all sucked for composite nails. If you’re going to do it, get a true dedicated composite nail gun, they are doing something different.
It looks like there’s another less expensive option now too, I haven’t used the Spotnails gun before, looks like the difference is that it can only handle up to 1.5" nails where the other nailers can take 2", here’s the amazon affiliate link if you’re interested Spotnails CB1538C 15 Gauge Composite Finish Nailer, 1/2" to 1-1/2" - Amazon.com
Also, for anyone else who’s curious about how well composite nails actually work, here’s a clip of me driving a 1.5" composite nail through .875" walnut with no problems, I was pretty impressed!
As for the sharpie thing, I’ve done it with a different CNC and it worked well, a sharpie fits almost perfect into a 1/2" collet… I haven’t done it with the pro because it used to be a PITA to turn the spindle off while running, I think with the latest firmware update we can now run the X-Carve Pro with the spindle at 0 RPM? Been busy and haven’t tried it but I’ve been meaning to check it out, it would make using a pen and drag knife easier. Let me know if you give it a go!
I must be missing something here, I must still be too newbie and inexperienced to understand these problems.
I hardly use clamps any more. When I do, I make sure that my work zero is inside from the clamp so that when the work is complete, the spindle doesn’t go far enough to hit the clamp. Yes, I have had that happen, and I learned to not do that.
Here are a few things I do to ensure that I don’t hit clamps, and I understand the extra size of a dust collection shoe, and if you use one you have to factor in the size of the shoe as well.
1 - double-sided adhesive tape. I buy this stuff at the Dollar Store for $3.50 for a 3 meter roll (about 10 feet), and typically use an inch or less at each corner. My buddy is also a woodworker and laughed when I told him about it, so when he gave me a project to carve on an exotic wood, I used it. When it was finished (through cuts on 4/4 hardwood), I pointed out the lack of clamps, told him I used the tape, and asked him to remove it from the machine while I went to fetch a prying tool. He couldn’t do it. It wouldn’t budge. Don’t knock it until you try it.
2 - Flat side-clamps. These are some small ones for working with 1/8 material, but they can hold larger materials too. Holds the workpiece tight so that it can’t move around, and they sit outside of the work area, so they can’t get hit. If they do get hit, who cares? Grab a scrap and cut another one. I make these myself from scraps and can carve new ones whenever I need. Cost me nothing.
3 - Cam clamps. I don’t have any to show you right now because I loaned them to a friend, but google it. They mount beside your workpiece and have an elliptical head that is shaped like a camshaft lobe (hence the name), that holds it tight against another cam clamp on the other side. Better yet, clamp them up against a square. Again, out of the workspace and lower than the workpiece, there is nothing to hit.
4 - Wasteboard square. The most dangerous area of any carve is that bottom left corner where the bit is going to return to when the job is done. Not only does this square keep my work, well, square and my work zero at the same place every time, but it is also a solid surface to apply clamping pressure against. I have several of these, and for smaller materials like 1/8 and 1/4, I have carved a rabbet on the inside of the square so that the square holds the material down.
5 - Screws. I don’t do this very often, but on occasion I need to. I pre-drill with a small drill bit (like a 5/16) through to the aux wasteboard, and then use a small counter-sink bit to notch a shoulder, and then drive a 6x1" screw through the material and into the wasteboard, and counter-sink the head of the screw well below the depth of my carve. There is nothing to hit, unless you are doing through cuts right to the edges of your wood. In that case, choose where to mount your screws. I have also chosen to screw scraps around my workpiece to hold it in place.
I do not have an X-Carve, so you may think that all of my solutions are dumb and that they can’t work. That’s too bad. I have done this on several machines that are worth a lot less money than an X-Carve, and I can assure you that they do work.
Make yourself an auxiliary wasteboard (make a few, even). A straight-up simple piece of mdf will do if you are just going to screw things. Cheap, disposable, easily replaceable. Use threaded inserts (from the bottom), about every 80mm, and you have plenty of mounting points for clamps, camlocks, or even bolts. If you prefer, you can cut dogholes, and there are plenty of clamps (including camlocks or side clamps) that will work. You can use dowels and wedges if you want to. It can be pretty simple and rudimentary and still be effective.
There are lots of ways to find solutions without spending a fortune, or re-engineering a dumb machine to be smarter than you. Be smarter than the machine.
I just have one more thing to suggest, and I have made this recommendation to Inventables for their Easel software. Trace your work to see where the bit is going to go! Easel sucks for this, because the only way to do it is to measure everything, be very visual, and map stuff out with your own skill and imagination (which is prone to error). One way that you can do this with Easel is to set your Z-zero high above your workspace before you click Carve, and watch where it goes. This is time-consuming, especially on a long carve, and there is no real-time display of what Easel is carving (even using the Simulation), so you just don’t know for sure unless you measure all areas of concern.
I use a free program called UGS (Universal G-Code Sender) that works with almost every machine I have used, and it will allow you to right-click on any part of the carve and go to that location. It is excellent! I still use Easel for some design work and to create my g-code, but I don’t remember the last time I used it to carve, because it is critically important to me to see where the bit is going to be at several different points of my carve, and UGS can do that while Easel cannot.
I hope this helps some of you to look at some different options. Don’t think that you are stuck and don’t have choices. There is always another way!
Jordan,
All good stuff, thank you for the addition. I am fairly new at all of this, and have had so many issues that I’m constantly running around playing catch-up. Some (most perhaps) being user error, others, well… NOT.
I’ve used carpet tape with mixed results. expensive though. I’ll give your Dollar Store tape a try.
I just ‘trusted’ the process and did what I was told for the first year of this journey. By that I mean, I used the clamps supplied with the machine. With more experience, I am now seeing the wisdom of moving ‘out of the box’ and trying different solutions that others such as yourself have suggested (as well as some ideas of my own). Making a front left corner brace/bracket/whatever it’s called, is on my ‘to-do’ list, as I can see its value since it is almost impossible to clamp that corner any other way.
Cam clamps seem to be a good idea, but I have yet to make some and try them, but I’ve added them to the list.
It is important to note that Firstly, the software limitation which you mention at the end, has been a source of frustration for me as I make meticulous measurements, and still run into clamp interference. Your suggested solutions may or may not correct that. Being an analog guy trapped in a digital world makes me shudder at having to learn multiple new software programs just to do what I thought that I could do with Easel - but that’s life. At some point I’ll have to put “take some computer classes” onto the agenda.
The biggest problem with the clamps provided with the machine is the design surrounding the dust boot. The boot of the X-Carve Pro is NOT mounted to the spindle, and thus it does not raise up to avoid a clamp as the spindle can be programmed to do.
Now, YES, I see advantages to having the dust boot in contact with the work surface throughout the carve, but there are also downsides, and the biggest downside is that one must design in a LOT of waste for ample clamp clearance - OR - as you have suggested, find side/bottom clamping options.
This is where some of your suggestions come in (side clamping vs. top clamping), and most of all, why I see the composite nails as the possible ultimate solution. I do not yet own one, and cannot say, but it sure looks like a PERFECT solution. MUCH faster than any clamp (and tape) solution could be, and ZERO need to design around clamps. I am sure that there are down sides, but until I give them a try, I cannot yet say what they are. As such, I plan to buy a nailer and composite nails and give them a try (just sucks that I can’t fire them out of any of the dozen nailers that I have in my shop - such is life).
Thank you again for your input. I learn a lot from this group and appreciate all of you and your insight. This learning curve has been steeper than anticipated, but I’ve learned to lean into the failures and embrace the suck - - that’s how we grow right?
I just drive screws in the side of my piece and clamp the screws down instead of the piece its self
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